Otto Kumm's Prelimary KC document on Ebay

[Denis]

Hello HIAG

Thanks for your response about that matter. Don't worry, no offence taken from my side. It is always interesting to discuss between hobbyists. I am going to try to answer to the points you have raised.

I have gathered about 270 Heer/WSS KC preliminary certificates photocopies because I like to study this matter. If I agree with you that some have shown interesting and more or less subtle variations, however, enough certificates have reached us to draw some conclusions about the various encountered patterns.

For Heer/WSS Certificates, we can define 5 different patterns. Each of these patterns fits to a specific period and was created to satisfy with either a need (e.g. : creating a specific document for Heer/WSS KC holders) or a rule (for example, introduction of the latin script and simplified document in mid-43 to spare costs and time). I do not want to enter into in-depth explanations since this not the place and not the moment (I have written an article dealing with KC preliminary certificates which should be available soon on this site).

As far as I know, I have never seen a "no longer used" certificate pattern which would have been used again (e.g. a gothic script pattern which would have been used for instance in mid-1944). Beyond that point, it is simply impossible to see the opposite as it is the case with this document : how can a Latin script certificate be used in February 1942, ie 1 year and half before its creation ?! For me, it makes no sense.

If you add to the previous point that :

the document bears a rubber stamp which is completely different with the 4/5 ones encountered,
the unit designation did not exist in February, 1942,
this kind of typewriter was not used in February, 1942,

I come to the conclusion this document is a fake.
I understand your doubts and concerns but I cannot reach to another conclusion when I base my opinion about the data that I have studied so far.

The signature shown on this document does not belong to General Rudolf Schmundt. His signature is completely different and much more angular. I will try to find you a good example this week-end to share it with you next Monday.

What are other members' opinion about that document ?

Regards
Denis

[prorege1]

Interesting, if this is a suspected fake what about all the other Kumm documents?

[HIAG]

Hello HIAG

Thanks for your response about that matter. Don't worry, no offence taken from my side. It is always interesting to discuss between hobbyists. I am going to try to answer to the points you have raised.

I have gathered about 270 Heer/WSS KC preliminary certificates photocopies because I like to study this matter. If I agree with you that some have shown interesting and more or less subtle variations, however, enough certificates have reached us to draw some conclusions about the various encountered patterns.

For Heer/WSS Certificates, we can define 5 different patterns. Each of these patterns fits to a specific period and was created to satisfy with either a need (e.g. : creating a specific document for Heer/WSS KC holders) or a rule (for example, introduction of the latin script and simplified document in mid-43 to spare costs and time). I do not want to enter into in-depth explanations since this not the place and not the moment (I have written an article dealing with KC preliminary certificates which should be available soon on this site).

As far as I know, I have never seen a "no longer used" certificate pattern which would have been used again (e.g. a gothic script pattern which would have been used for instance in mid-1944). Beyond that point, it is simply impossible to see the opposite as it is the case with this document : how can a Latin script certificate be used in February 1942, ie 1 year and half before its creation ?! For me, it makes no sense.

If you add to the previous point that :

the document bears a rubber stamp which is completely different with the 4/5 ones encountered,
the unit designation did not exist in February, 1942,
this kind of typewriter was not used in February, 1942,

I come to the conclusion this document is a fake.
I understand your doubts and concerns but I cannot reach to another conclusion when I base my opinion about the data that I have studied so far.

The signature shown on this document does not belong to General Rudolf Schmundt. His signature is completely different and much more angular. I will try to find you a good example this week-end to share it with you next Monday.

What are other members' opinion about that document ?

Regards
Denis

I Completely understand where you're coming from,but firstly I'm happy that the signature belongs to Schmundt who was responsible for signing many preliminary KC documents, Secondly could'nt this document be a "Zweitschriftt" or file copy. Reason being why would this document be amonst Kumm's SS file which included many more of his award documents. I'm sorry to disagree but actually having had his file in my possesion I feel I must go against your opinions as I would hate to see an original document of historical importance being sent to the scrap heap on one mans say so.

Regards Hiag

[Denis]

Hello

If this document was a Zweitschrift one (ie a replacement certificate), this might explain several points (for example, the unit name and the type of late war document). Nevertheless, the Zweitschrift preliminary certificates are usually clearly identified as such (with the word "Zweitschrift" typewritten at the top of the document) and bear a date of issue (ie the date to which the document was made) which is logically remote from the bestowal date (most of time several months, and even years and not 8 days like on this doc).

Anyway, in spite of these inconsistencies, even if we consider that this document was a Zweitschfrit one, we still would have the problem of the typewriter and the rubber stamp.

The Kumm certificate displayed in Mr Yerger's book is in my opinion very similar to the Walter Küger one which is shown on "the Iron Time" (p. 331) written by Mr. Previtera. For the members who would not have access to this very intersting book, this Krüger document is made from a Type 5 Latin script certificate, bears a signature from an unknown Gen.Lt. (not the same than the one shown on the Kumm doc though) and as far as I can see, the rubber stamp is exactly the same than the Kumm certificate. From the comparison of the type faces, it seems that the same typewriter was used to produce both the Kumm and the Krüger documents.

Err, regarding the Schmundt signature, I am afraid that you misunderstood me. In my opinion, this is not General Schmundt's signature. At the end of my thread, you will find what I consider a "textbook" signature from Rudolf Schmundt. I am sure that you will agree with me to say it is very different from the one shown on this document.

Hiag, I fully understand your concerns and be sure there is no problem for me. My response was just devoted to share my personal views from what I have seen, upon a matter I am interested in, no more, no less.

Best regards

Denis

[nick-j]

This Group is up for sale again on The next Hermann - Historica auction in April/May 2012. Sorry I don"t know how to do a link but it"s Item 7110 on page 400. When I owned it there was none of the insignia with the group.