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    Did Juncker make a Schinkel Iron Cross?

    The Juncker Schinkel

    _____________

    Most of us are familiar with the various types of Schinkel EKs that may be collected in our hobby. The Deumer and The Meybauer are the most common. WAF member grueni1208 (AKA Daniel) has made an informative thread to help classify and attribute each version. It can be found HERE.

    So Meybauer made Schinkels. Deumer made Schinkels. A few other jewelers made Schinkels. Did C.E. Juncker make a Schinkel? I didn't think so, and I wasn't intending to find out. But I believe now that they did.

    It all started with my interest in an 1870-series EK2 called the Wideframe.

    Comparing the Crosses:

    The 1870 Wideframe Iron Cross has fascinated me since I learned about it. They are automatically distinctive, as the frames measure over 43.5mm square -- noticeably larger than a standard 1870 Iron Cross, and larger even than an Imperial Iron Cross. They are very well made. But I began to ask some questions: Who made them? When? Many people had different theories. When I discovered a 1914 counterpart, I began investigating the crosses further. The first thing I wanted to was make sure the 1870 and the 1914 were indeed a match.

    Were the 1870 Wideframe (below, left) and the 1914 Wideframe (below, right) EKs made by the same maker? I believe so.



    This conclusion is supported by the fact that the frames were struck from the same die, as was the reverse core, apparent in the illustration below. The details of construction are identical as well: for example, the jumpring is soldered on one side only to a small lug on the 12 o'clock arm of the frame.



    The inner-beading pattern of the frame is distinctive:



    A close comparison between the 1870 (left) and the 1914 (right) reveals that the same die was used to strike both frames:



    Finally, the measurements of key (and, with the exception of overall height (n) and width (m), inflexible) distances reveal a synchronicity that can hardly be coincidental, especially given the non-standard dimensions of the cross. Here are the measurements I took, with an accurate caliper:



    As will be seen, the measurements are virtually identical for the 1870 and the 1914 Wideframes:




    Also evident in this table is the reason for the name Wideframe. Overall height and width are around 43.6mm -- substantially larger than other 1870 or 1914 EKs. In fact, these measurements have led some to conclude -- incorrectly, as I hope to show -- that these Wideframes are in fact of Third Reich manufacture.

    At this juncture, I hope only that it's clear, from the illustrations and information above, that these two crosses are made by the same maker.


    Dating the 1870:

    There are a number of reasons I believe the 1870 was manufactured before the 1914, and probably before World War I. While I have concluded this to my personal satisfaction based on physical observation and available evidence, it should be noted that Detlev Nemann, who has examined these Wideframe 1870 EKs in both second and first classes, has also determined them to have been made "around 1900." This opinion has graced all of his COAs that have accompanied these crosses.

    The most compelling evidence in my view is the progression of die wear. The frame of the 1870 (below, left) has crisp beads and virtually no die flaws. By the time the 1914 frame (below, right) was struck, the die had apparently been worn down over time. The beads are softer and flatter in appearance, and numerous small flaws -- most notably in the lower right inner corner of the 1914 (marked with an arrow) -- have begun to grow, further testimony to a well-worn die.



    It's important to note that the softer, flatter appearance of the beading crown on the 1914 series EKs, as well as the progressive die flaws, is consistent across all examples I have seen, which tends to rule out the possibility of individual wear as a cause. Moreover, the beading is sharply defined and the flaws are minimal on all the 1870s I have seen.

    Another clue that the 1870 was made earlier than the 1914 is the design of the core details. A comparison of the two cores, and especially the crowns, indicates to me that the 1870 core obverse and reverse (below, upper left and lower left) were designed together, probably by the same hand. The dates "1870" and "1914" are excellent stylistic matches, and the crowns, while not identical, show evidence of having been designed as a matching set intended to be part of the same cross. By comparison, the 1914 cross was assembled using the same core reverse as the 1870 with the addition of a different, and in my opinion newly designed, core obverse. The crown on the 1914 reverse (below, lower right) is therefore identical to the 1870, while the crown on the 1914 obverse (below, upper right) is a different design, possibly by a different hand.



    Incidentally, the 1914 core obverse may also be found on WWI EK1s (with the same frame, the same worn beading crown and same progressed die flaws):



    Another piece of evidence leads me to believe that the 1870 is a pre-World War I manufactured piece: the case in which one particular example of this cross came housed. Cases, of course, can be swapped. However, I believe this case was made to house this exact cross, and is probably of pre-World War I manufacture:



    The inlet in this particular case is a precise fit for this particular type of cross (the Wideframe), and no others. As noted, these crosses are known as Wideframes for a reason: their outer measurements are substantially larger than any other 1870 (or 1914) EKs, with an overall height and width of approximately 43.5mm. A standard 1870 or 1914 EK2, with measurements closer to 42mm square, is dwarfed in this case's inlet. The Wideframe, however, fits perfectly snugly, the rims slotting into the inlet and sinking flush with the base material. Here it is shown partly removed to demonstrate the size of the inlet:



    Also, this set was purchased directly from a dealer, who claims in turn to have purchased it directly from the original family. This kind of "dealer provenance" is unconvincing to some, and I understand why, but I believe the inlet evidence supports the conclusion that the case was made for this cross, even without any provenance. If we accept this, we must then ask; when was this case made? I believe it was made before World War I, although this is harder to pin down with any certainty. However, the hardware used, especially the closure mechanism, is more consistent with prewar cases than with wartime cases:



    Finally, these 1870 Wideframe crosses are also commonly found with "25" Oakleaf attachments affixed to them -- on at least one occasion, on a medalbar:


    © WAF member NBolinger

    For these reasons (die wear, progressive flaws, core design, case evidence, and ancillary evidence such as Detlev Niemann's opinion and the frequency of Jubilee attachments) I believe the Wideframe 1870 EK was made before World War I, probably around 1900, obviously as a private purchase item.



    Dating the 1914:

    Fixing a period of manufacture for the 1914 Wideframe would seem at first to be unnecessary. However, the dimensions of the frame have convinced many that this piece was in fact made during the Third Reich, when larger dimensions for the Iron Cross were mandated. It is my view that this is incorrect, and that the 1914 Wideframe was manufactured during World War I.

    As evidence, I refer to First Class examples of the same cross:



    As previously noted, the frame and core on this example are identical to the frame and core of the EK2 shown and discussed above. The hardware found on this particular example is consistent with World War I examples, and not with Third Reich examples:



    Here, the same cross (core, frame, pin system), engraved "20 September 1914 / Heinz" in Stephen Previtera's The Iron Time, 2nd Edition p. 238:


    © Stephen Thomas Previtera

    Moreover, this same frame may be found on many undoubtedly World War I manufactured EK1s. Of note is that the frame is found (so far, by me) mostly on crosses marked by maker AWS, or on unmarked crosses. Here are but two examples:


    © WAF member Steve Campbell

    Note the similarity in pin systems:


    © WAF member Steve Campbell

    One more, unmarked:



    And, interestingly, this onyx-core example, which may be seen in detail on pp 180-181 of S. Previtera's The Iron Time, 2nd Ed.:


    © Stephen Thomas Previtera

    Center beading:


    © Stephen Thomas Previtera

    Thus I believe the evidence supports the conclusion that the 1870 Wideframe was manufactured around 1900, the 1914 Wideframe was manufactured during World War I, and that they were made by the same firm.


    A Surprising Turn Of Events:

    Once I familiarized myself with the particular features of this frame, I began to see it on more and more crosses. It's not the most common frame, but you do see it around. It was only a matter of time before I found it on a very surprising cross:





    A 1939 cross that uses leftover Imperial frame stock? Don't we have a name for those crosses? This cross may never be widely accepted as a Schinkel, and may never command a premium on dealers' websites, but it is, in my firm opinion, a Schinkel in the truest sense of the word.

    It's gone unnoticed for reasons I can only really speculate about, but the most obvious one is its dimensions. What was considered a wide frame in 1900 or 1914 was only slightly too small in 1939. Indeed, the fact that the frame measures almost 44mm square is probably the main reason it was used in the first place. Another reason it may not be accepted as a true Schinkel is that the definition of Schinkels has changed over the years. It used to be that a Schinkel was, simply, any 1939-series cross made up using Imperial-era frame dies. However, I have read differing definitions lately, definitions that rely more on the shape rather than the origin and history of the frames. For example:

    The slender early design is what makes a Schinkel a Schinkel.
    But do these frames really match?



    Let's have a look at some comparisons:



    Center beading:



    Note the progression of the corner die flaw:



    The bead-count is identical on every arm. Here, the 6-o'clock arm of the 1870 (top), the 1914 (middle) and the 1939 (bottom):



    There is other evidence to support the conclusion that this 1939 cross is of early manufacture, as every Schinkel is: every example I have seen has been unmarked, and most have non-magnetic zinc or brass cores.


    Fixing a Maker to the "Wideframe" Series

    Given that we now know (if you're with me so far) that the 1870 Wideframe was made around 1900, the 1914 Wideframe was made during World War I, and the 1939 cross was made early in World War II, is it possible to say who made them? Well, the obvious answer would be "AWS" made the 1870 and the Imperial ones. After all, AWS EKs use the same frame. But why don't they use the same core? And who then made the 1939 ones? Could there be another firm with whom AWS had known contacts, who could have either supplied AWS with the frames, or sourced the frames from AWS for use with their own cores? As it turns out, AWS had a known business relationship with the Berlin film of C.E. Juncker. Specifically, Juncker's 1914-series EKs that were manufactured during the later years of World War II used AWS cores.

    Also, every single example that I have seen of the 1939 Wideframe Schinkel has a Juncker core of a type that is also found in Juncker's typical 3-flaw/crunch bead frames. The EK2 pictured above has a Juncker core. Here is another one:



    The two First Class 1939 Wideframe Schinkels I have seen in just the past few weeks have Juncker pins, as well:



    This one, a direct buy from a veteran with known provenance, is inscribed with a 1940 date on the reverse:


    © WAF member Stew

    In summary, I believe that the evidence supports the following tentative conclusions:

    The 1870 Wideframe was made before World War I by Juncker (or possibly AWS)
    The 1914 Wideframe was made during World War I by Juncker (or possibly AWS)
    The 1939 Wideframe Schinkel was made early in World War II by Juncker

    I hope this will generate some debate, and some checking of frames in personal collections. Please don't hesitate to post observations, photos, doubts or questions in this thread. These frames are out there: on 1914 crosses, as well as on the 1870 "wideframes," and on what I believe it is fair to call the 1939 "Juncker Wideframe Schinkel."


    This thread was originally posted in the Imperial section with a few differences.
    Best regards,
    Streptile

    Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

    #2
    Trevor,

    May I be first to compliment you on this new revelation/discovery. An excellent presentation with sound evidence to support the new discovery. I indeed have a wide-frame of the same frame and core, and it's flaws show considerable progression from overuse during the early year(s) of WWII. Here it is for comparison...
    Attached Files

    Comment


      #3
      rev...
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        I might add also that every '39 cross I've seen thus far with this same frame (wide-frame) design has the same core. I have a 3-flaw Juncker EKII with the same core as the wide-frame discussed here. Here is a photo to compare dates. The circled area in the lower photo is a 3-flaw Juncker frame, the wide-frame above it. Notice, both dates are identical. A connection with Juncker is evident.
        Attached Files

        Comment


          #5
          First, this is one of THE BEST threads i ever read here and you did right to put it in the 'Crosses of the Wehrmacht' section too. Agree to all that has been said!

          Only minor thing we need to put to rest. The so called 'Onyx core' is not made out of Onyx, a semi precious stone. I'ts made of silver or some other base metal that first had the silver inlaid and then enamelled on both sides. Putting silver inlay in Onyx would take a very long time to finish, it would be nearly impossible in fact.

          Comment


            #6
            Juncker

            Trevor

            Very nice artical you have written, and Robert you addium is as always superb. Now I have to get mine out and see if I have one also. Jim

            Comment


              #7
              Trevor,

              Here is a montage of your '39 wide-frame EKI (left) and my 3-flaw Juncker EKI (to the right), showing even the same hinge stock material. Pins are identical, only difference is the catch material.

              As I remember in your study on the wide-frame you posted in the Imperial forum, you stated that the wide-frame's flaws progressed to the point of Juncker having to make new dies. Thus, the 3-flaw Juncker frame came into being. I agree with you on this. Looking at these crosses below, yours has a nickel silver catch (earlier I would think), while mine has a brass or tombak catch (later production).
              Attached Files

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by robert pierce View Post
                Trevor,
                As I remember in your study on the wide-frame you posted in the Imperial forum, you stated that the wide-frame's flaws progressed to the point of Juncker having to make new dies. Thus, the 3-flaw Juncker frame came into being. I agree with you on this. Looking at these crosses below, yours has a nickel silver catch (earlier I would think), while mine has a brass or tombak catch (later production).
                Thanks for doing that comparison montage, Robert... very interesting. I didn't exactly state so much as postulate that the old Imperial frame dies (the Wideframe dies) were probably so worn out by the beginning of WWII (as evidenced by heavy flaws, which are also present on the beading crown when viewed up close) that Juncker probably had to switch to a new die. The traditional 3 flaw/crunch bead frame was possibly the replacement; there are many, many similarities between the two frames in the way of proportions (arm flare, angle, jumpring lug, flange width, etc) that make me think the 3-flaw was the immediate successor to the Wideframe. The catch-material evidence seen in your photos above tends to support this timeline.

                The similarities in proportion and dimensions would make sense for another reason: making an EK frame required a few tools: 1) the original stamping die, of course. But then 2) a machine to stamp out the outer edge, 3) another to stamp out the inner material, and (for an EK1) 4) one to stamp out the backing plates, which had to be an exact size and dimension match to the obverse frame. Robert's side-by-side above also illustrates that the Wideframe and the 3-flaw also probably used the same machines for stamping out the cutouts and backplates -- or, at a minimum, for the inside cutout. This would have saved Juncker some money for retooling.

                The fact that Juncker had a near-44mm frame die right from the beginning of World War II probably allowed them to get production moving pretty quickly on their EKs, making these possibly some of the very earliest EKs. Speculation, but makes some sense.

                Also, as Robert has stated, this particular core (seen in the Wideframe crosses above) may be found in the Wideframe and the 3-flaw Junckers, but not (in my personal experience) in the other frame I have seen attributed to Juncker:



                This latter frame may be the third in the Juncker frame timeline? Does this one have a name yet?
                Last edited by streptile; 11-25-2009, 05:34 PM. Reason: typo
                Best regards,
                Streptile

                Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

                Comment


                  #9
                  By the way, guys...

                  Let's post our Juncker Schinkels here. I'm interested to see 'em.

                  Here's another 1914-series Wideframe, which I'm told was made in the '20s as a commemorative piece:

                  EK1 Onyx
                  Best regards,
                  Streptile

                  Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by streptile View Post
                    By the way, guys...

                    Let's post our Juncker Schinkels here. I'm interested to see 'em.

                    Here's another 1914-series Wideframe, which I'm told was made in the '20s as a commemorative piece:

                    EK1 Onyx
                    Linkage wrong? It refers to the actual EK that is in the Iron Time.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by RaZpuTiN View Post
                      Linkage wrong? It refers to the actual EK that is in the Iron Time.
                      Hey Rasputin,

                      No, the link is not wrong. That EK from The Iron Time, now owned by Kay here on WAF, was made with the same frames that may be found on the Juncker Schinkel.

                      It is my opinion that these frames were made by Juncker and sold to AWS, although the reverse could also be true. Whether Juncker, AWS, or some third company made that particular enameled core EK2 is an open question.
                      Best regards,
                      Streptile

                      Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        hello ,,,
                        specially fore the incoming off the email ek2 I started looking fore a ek2 AWS in standard form ...
                        and I found one that dos ads up to all specific frame characteristics
                        that Streptile listing here so nicely

                        also I found some (quality upgrade) variation on that type off cross that not has bin discussed yet .
                        the normal ek2 is identical (frame wise) to the email ek 2

                        hope the picture help

                        first up normal ek2 AWS
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #13
                          these side's off the regular ek frame look to me like the frame where made with A different manufacturing method .

                          just A theory .
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                            #14
                            and the ek email has the same characteristics
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                              #15
                              the corners are also identical
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

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