A Rare Find

[Montgomery Burns]

In my opinion the ring is original and matches the type found on these pieces.

The maker, as stated in my first post is..Heinrich Ulbricht's Witwe
Maker mark can be found, on some orders. Here it is on an FJO

A link that mentions the HUW mark.

http://monarchiahadiipar.hupont.hu/1...zek-tartozekai

very nice investigation results ,,very well done ...thank you

regards kay

[kriztof]

Fraid I can't take credit for the info Kay, it was posted by Tom on GMIC. I merely passed it on.....

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=45210


Chris

[kriztof]

I've been looking back at some of the old posts regarding the sheet metal cores and it seems that the CFZ association stems from a bit of reverse engineering.

Up until the time of the CFZ fire discovery we had no clues to the origin of these two core types. I think this is how the story started, the L/52 marked TR pieces.
It could well be that they were "all" made by CFZ, I don't know, but, with this new HUW mark it could give some credence to the "made by another company and sold to CFZ" theory also, or vise versa.

We've seen one HUW marked piece which is one more than I've seen of an Imperial piece marked by Zimmermann. If anyone has one I would love to see it to be able to prove that CFZ was an active producer of pre- 1920 EKs and to act as a guideline for future pieces.

With the different pin/hinge & various stampings found on these, to date I have over thirty variations listed. Not all were Blued, some are painted, others are painted and Blued but, they all share the same sheet metal core and frame.

A mystery and a shear delight for the variant collector in your life

[Montgomery Burns]

I've been looking back at some of the old posts regarding the sheet metal cores and it seems that the CFZ association stems from a bit of reverse engineering.

Up until the time of the CFZ fire discovery we had no clues to the origin of these two core types. I think this is how the story started, the L/52 marked TR pieces.
It could well be that they were "all" made by CFZ, I don't know, but, with this new HUW mark it could give some credence to the "made by another company and sold to CFZ" theory also, or vise versa.

We've seen one HUW marked piece which is one more than I've seen of an Imperial piece marked by Zimmermann. If anyone has one I would love to see it to be able to prove that CFZ was an active producer of pre- 1920 EKs and to act as a guideline for future pieces.

With the different pin/hinge & various stampings found on these, to date I have over thirty variations listed. Not all were Blued, some are painted, others are painted and Blued but, they all share the same sheet metal core and frame.

A mystery and a shear delight for the variant collector in your life

I 100% stand behind you're words Chris ...

[Ammersee]

but putting it down as fake or un honourable attempt to fool collectors ...
is going to far to me ...regards kay

I'm not calling it a fake or an attempt to fool anyone. I'm just saying that the ring could have simply been replaced by one from another medal many years ago for whatever reason. The ring is thicker than any I've seen on any normal 1914 cross. The mark on the ring is one never seen before on a 1914 cross until now. We simply need a second cross with the same mark to confirm the fact this cross was indeed made by HUW.

And, as far as the supposed Zimmermann crosses not being made by Zimmermann at all...I agree that this could very well be the case. No rings stamped "CFZ", so how do we know? Gary

[kriztof]

The ring is thicker than any I've seen on any normal 1914 cross.
Gary

Gary, here is a link to one that Trevor posted, you'll notice the same ring style shown on this example. If you perform a little search there are other examples as well. In fact one of them is yours You have too many crosses..

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=460478

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=blue+core

Chris

[saschaw]

Pre-WW1 and later Zimmermann was one of the most important makers of orders and decorations in Germany. I can not even imagine to have doubts they made EKs. And I can hardly imagine all these crosses were made by a foreign maker. This were highly unusual!

By the way, there are Zimmermann made WW1 orders with a "SILBER" mark...

[kriztof]

Pre-WW1 and later Zimmermann was one of the most important makers of orders and decorations in Germany. I can not even imagine to have doubts they made EKs. And I can hardly imagine all these crosses were made by a foreign maker. This were highly unusual!

Foreign

By the way, there are Zimmermann made WW1 orders with a "SILBER" mark...

Poellath used the Silber stamp also, maybe others did. There are no absolutes.

Chris

[Montgomery Burns]

Pre-WW1 and later Zimmermann was one of the most important makers of orders and decorations in Germany. I can not even imagine to have doubts they made EKs.

And I can hardly imagine all these crosses were made by a foreign maker. This were highly unusual!

By the way, there are Zimmermann made WW1 orders with a "SILBER" mark...

1939 Spanish ek's are excepted fore years by now ?

Hansen core used by other makers as well fore the ek2
and the full version off Hansen ek1 with complete other maker marks .. ?

WS cores are found in a dozen other ek frame's as well ?

S&L sold all types off his medals to any kind off Abzeichen fabrik in Germany to make bars ?

not to speak about Juncker ?

what is the trouble excepting other maker mark or makers linked to this cross ?

I cant understand this



.

[saschaw]

1939 Spanish ek's are excepted fore years by now ?

Oh, and I thought they were post-WW2.

It's just that I thought to read doubts Zimmermann made these not in WW1 but started way later, which is, from the circumstances of this maker, most unlikely.

I did just add some information for those who apparently don't know of this maker's history - which is an important puzzle piece indeed.

[Roglebk]

C. F. Zimmermann is in Pforzheim which was destroyed totally in WW2. I have no idea if anything survived.

They were big in business from at least end 19th century and made orders for half of Europe...

Read somewhere that about 80% of the buildings were destroyed, maybe the Town records survived?