White Panzer Sets

[J Melvin]

Actually, Ade, this was a surprise "1". But, a good surprise

[CSP]

Jack:
Your approach and attitude are a blessing to the Forum and the hobby. I am pleased for you with your find.

[Panzer]

Hi Guys,
I do not wish to be a spoiler or anything but will record here that I think this is a repro. I suspect possibly one of the Czech made ones rather than Janke. I have NEVER seen (personally) a genuine HBT wrap with the zig-zag behind the collar, the numerals are too dark and heavy in the stampings, the buckle is far too chrome for my liking and overall it just reeks of one of being one of these copies. I have seen them several times in green and believe this is simply the same in cream. They also always have the pants with them and are always basically mint. Look at Willi's fine uniform.....it is unissued but still one can get the feeling and idea it is 60 years old......I do not get the same feeling from the panzer set. does anyone else? I sent Jack an e-mail prior to his look at this and included a photo of fake markings that now I believe are very close to what is shown here (as are the dish buttons shown in both pics)

Almost every time I see one of these HBT sets advertised they turn out to be fake.....I have found in looking around one in green which is (I believe) genuine......it is sold but take a look at the pictures: http://www.relichunter.com/panzerhbt.jpg
also take note of the fine font markings both the black size set and the white RbNr set, these being almost identical to my own well worn set I found in Normandy (shown on page 53 of my panzer uniforms book). This tunic from Relic Hunter is the nicest originals I have ever laid eyes on. It would be interesting to know if he still has pictures of a repro set he had some time back which was discussed on the forum. It might shed more detail on this present LW set.

At the end of the day one has to be happy with their own purchase, and good luck if you are. But our opinion was sought.....and that is mine.
Cheers all! Wade K.

[CSP]

Wade:
I had meant to point out the zig-zag as well - but did not. Better commimg from you, as I know your knowledge of the repros exceeds mine.

[J Melvin]

Out of curiosity, on the zig zag stitching on the collar, although the known originals seem never to have it if the collar is unreenforced, why couldn't an original? I own 4 HBT tunics. All except a set of early unbleached coveralls have the zigzag reenforcement to the collar. None have any stiffener or other material applied to the collar. HBT sewn to HBT.

As to the set sold by Relic Hunter, there were four things that I had questions about. So, if someone can answer: 1. None of the buttons are applied in the typical "ll" pattern, but instead in the "X" pattern. This doesn't seem too uncommon for cuff buttons. But for other buttons, it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Is this a common practice on wraps? 2. Some buttonholes appear not to be keyhole style. Again, another common practice? I have seen some straight buttonholes on HBT. But, again, this appears to be the exception rather than the norm. 3. The finish to the buttonholes is not very detailed. I would assume that this is just shoddy late war craftsmanship? 4. No rust or other tarnishing to the collar hook. Wouldn't some discoloration be expected even if never issued?

I hope that this doesn't sound picky. But those are also things that I would look at. This is a learning experience for me on a fairly obscure item. So, any explanations are certainly welcome.

[Willi Z.]

I must admit, that HBT green wrap on Gerard's site looks very nice! To me, it all looks right, from a marking, button, stitch, etc point of view. I will see Gerard this weekend at a show, if someone wants me to ask him if it is truly sold.

As for the stitch pattern on the buttons, will only use my drill set as a reference. All the buttons on the trousers use the "X" pattern. On the tunic, only the main tan glass buttons use the "II" pattern, all others use the "X" pattern.

The tunic collar has the zig-zag on the inside of the collar.

Here are some features of the trousers.

Willi

[Willi Z.]

Some features of the tunic. I realize normal drill tunic to Panzer drill tunic is apples and oranges, but it might help authenticate this piece.

[Panzer]

Hi Fellas,
OK....I cannot answer for the other HBT tunics (the rules are different for 4 pocket tunics of all kinds), but generally they DO have some sort of internal bias material, that is why the zig-zag sewing is there, to hold it in place and not as some kind of hidden decoration....it has this purpose. NONE of the HBT wraps I have ever looked at that were genuine had the zig-zag....but ALL of the repros, both Janke & Czech made DID HAVE IT. Naturallly, never say never, but this has proven true without fail so far.

All the buttons on my own HBT green wrap are like those of Gerard's....they are 'X' sewn on (same as on Willi's tunic).......none have been moved. The buttonholes are also identical on both tunics....his and mine. The use of metal dish buttons is another trait of the repro sets....I cannot recall seeing them with anything else! The originals generally have either glass or paper buttons....only rarely metal dish. The markings on Gerard's and mine are almost identical, different sizes, but identical style of black sizes and white RbNr. Mine is used......his is unused. By the way I have sent him a mail yesterday also asking if it is actually gone. I am interested in it.

I stick to my original opinion and also feel that Eric makes a good point.....if this is so mint and unissued, why the insignia? and also....why the heavy markings like the repros we all know? I sent this pic to Jack before we saw the tunic to warn of what to expect (We will sort this mail thing out today Jack! ) .....take a look.....here is a repro waistband...look familiar?


This is what I normally expect on repros....heavy dark lettering. So...there you go. Just a bit more of the puzzle from my angle. We are all learning!
Cheers, Wade K.

[djpool]

Collars

I guess I'll add my two cents and join those who feel the tunic in question is a repro. IMHO the stitching underneath the collar is typical for the current crop of HBT tunics. I think Relic Hunter had a similar set as the white one shown but in green several months back. He put it up on another forum and pulled it after all the negative comments. (I think the one Wade referenced on this thread is good).

Anyway back to the horizontal stitching, Most of the good ones I've seen have between 3-8(not a hard rule) lines of stitching more widely spaced. I can't really explain it but the current repros all have stitching thats similar to the white tunic shown. It looks to tight or bunched compared to real ones I've seen.

Is it possible for HBT wraps to have zig zag stitching? I've never seen a real one with this feature but I don't discount the possibility. I have a 4 pocket HBT tunic that doesn't have any zig zag stitching and I'm 100% happy with it.

Heres a picture of a repro wool Pz wrapper collar sewn in a fashion similar to the white one shown..Jim

[Akira Takiguchi]

I have to say that the font used in stamp looks modern, not pre-45. Cut-out 4 and rounded-tail R (and the general impression of the entire font) bothers me, sorry.

No implication that the uniform itself is bad, but the stamp is not good.

[Panzer]

Hi again,
I can see your point Jim, but personally I believe that the frequency and spacing of the horizontal stitching that you are talking of depends very much on the sewing machines used. It can vary (on originals & fakes) a good deal, depending on the settings used.

Here is a period picture from a 1942 book made in the manufacturing rooms of Peek & Cloppenburg. It shows a woman sewing this exact component of the uniforms. Now depending on the settings used or indeed the brand of machinery.....the frequency and spacing will differ. So it is not a "certain thing" to measure authenticity by I think.



Just an interesting period view of what are disussing though!
Cheers all! wade K.

[djpool]

Collar

Hi again,
I can see your point Jim, but personally I believe that the frequency and spacing of the horizontal stitching that you are talking of depends very much on the sewing machines used. It can vary (on originals & fakes) a good deal, depending on the settings used.

Here is a period picture from a 1942 book made in the manufacturing rooms of Peek & Cloppenburg. It shows a woman sewing this exact component of the uniforms. Now depending on the settings used or indeed the brand of machinery.....the frequency and spacing will differ. So it is not a "certain thing" to measure authenticity by I think.



Just an interesting period view of what are disussing though!
Cheers all! wade K.

Wade,

Oh I agree. Its likely that there are originals out there that show a similar style of sewing. However given the number of repro Panzer wraps out there with the exact style of stitching it would certainly make me a little MORE CAUTIOUS. Jim

[Panzer]

Hi Jim,
no problem.....I understand. I guess all I am saying is that there is a bit of variation in all construction techniques, given the variables of machinery, materials and labour skill. often we get down to extreemly specific points here, but back then they did not consider these things as closely as we do now. there are variable and so it pays to keep an open mind in general.

Interesting though to see the machinery in action producing this stuff though.
Cheers, Wade K.

[J Melvin]

Wade, thanks for the excellent photo of the making of a collar. That showed me exactly what I was looking for and allowed me to do a more thorough examination of the collar.

When I first checked it, I could see nothing that would have been another material present in it. I simply checked it by looking and rubbing the collar between my fingers. But, having seen how it was put together, I can see that this method will not work. So, next, I tried pinching it. I really dug into the collar and in doing so, I came up with a second piece of unseen material that I could grab with my fingers. When I let go, it snaps back into place. You can feel the material snap back and actually hear it pop. So, the material is there.

As I said, you learn something new everyday. I always thought that the stitching itself provided the reenforcement. But, this photo clearly shows that a second material was added to the reverse side of the collar and used to reenforce them. This has been a good learning thread for me.

[teka]

Hi,
my opinion is not very important but I agree to 100% with Wade. For me too it's a good repro.
Cheers
Teka