Luftwaffe Honor Goblet to ME262 Ace - Original?

[RobertE]

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any expertise in these type award items? This one is available, but I don't know if it's original. If anyone knows, please let me know.

regards, Robert

[RobertE]

2

[RobertE]

3

[RobertE]

4

[juvatwad]

The goblet itself is probably real, but it's messed with, I think. The engraving is off (look at the "H" in Gunther), and the Wagner stamp on the bottom looks crude. There is also beading along the edge of the bottom (the part with the Wagner stamp) that shouldn't be there. The finish I can't explain. Even alpaka shouldn't look like that. If the name is Wegmann, the date on the goblet doesn't quite match that date documented in Scheibert's book, but I don't think that's a big deal in and of itself. I have a grouping with a goblet and original award doc where the dates don't match Scheibert's. His dates on mine and the example posted here are earlier than the dates on the doc and goblets. It probably has to do with a "paper" award date vs the date the award actually was presented.

Ian

[juvatwad]

The more I look at it, I think this may be a fake base and stem grafted onto a real cup. The seem on the stem right after the number "2" in the date is way too crude and visible. That may also explain the finish as something done to make two nonmatching parts blend more together.

Ian

[Tim Calvert]

Compare the distance from the swasi to the beading...

This one is 835, Oct '41, but should there be that big a difference?

Also, here is one with almost the same date, yet the engraving of "A" is different?

[RobertE]

Thanks Ian; it could be bad. I see inside the cup that there is also a seam running up toward the top; is that typical for production pieces?

[RobertE]

Tim, thanks for the posting. It does appear that Alpaca-made cups did have the swastika further from the beading than the example you posted.

[juvatwad]

The seam is there, but the finish is such that it is very hard to see. The seams on the one shown here are too visible in my opinion.

[Gene]

Very odd powdery type finish

[RobertE]

Yes, the finish looks like it was underwater for some time. Obviously, it would be very easy for someone to polish the exterior if they wanted to match the sheen of most of these on the market. To me, it looks like it lost it's luster due to moisture exposure, just like any other German silver silver finish does.

I think the corrosion in the manufacturing stamp doesn't do us any favors. Kind of hard to see how clearly it was struck with the combination of muck and reflection.

On these goblets, it looks like the center band with the name engraving comes together over the diamond between the "G" and the "F". The seam is visible in the flaws on the oakleaves on Weitze's example, and it's the same place where the one I posted shows it was brazed together. The leaves on mine also show the same joining flaws.

I don't know how much slop was allowed on these, but will go through the threads. Plenty of these seem to have very visible joining seams running up the inside of the chalice.

The flat-toped "A" is shown in other examples on the forum, though I don't know how common a variation it is. The H looks complete and symetrical to me, just gunky and thus looks like it's missing a portion of the arm.

I think it is either completely fake, or completely real. I don't believe that a fake bottom and recipient ring would have been added to an original cup body, and the beading used to attach the bottom to the top is common to many originals.

When it gets here, I can perhaps post better pictures. If it's a replica, I can send it back.

regards, Robert

[juvatwad]

I'm not talking about the seam in the leaves. Look at the ring right beneath the leaves, and look at the Weitze example vs the one you show. See how the example in this thread is off register there? I haven't seen an original that is sloppy like that. Also compare the sharpness of detail in the same area of the leaves and acorns.

Ian

[frankscholz]

IMO good goblet

[RobertE]

That would be nice - if it's real, it was from a pilot with eight air victories while flying the Me262 and a DKiG winner. THAT would be neat!