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**Pieter Verbruggen** · 11-29-2003, 01:07 PM

....It's always a nice feeling to have ....ultra, super rare, unique, one-of a kind, never seen before, special items...

Pieter.

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 11-29-2003, 07:13 PM

Marc,
I am sorry if my comment did hurt your feelings but the job I am doing in this Forum is to tell the truth the best I can, not to tell the world all results of my own work as soon I found something new (for this, please allow me to choose my own path). So, regarding this exact buckle, yes I know today more than a year ago (when I was the only one recorded to have it) but it is a subject which has no interest for many people - my posts in this Forum as well as in the GDC are the perfect example. In such case, I say something only when a similar buckle surface. This time was your new find, so you got the update like anybody else. I did not agree with the term for the reason I said. Don't you feel it is right to do so? Of course, I could have said nothing and let readers believe it is a "ultra" rare buckle, so keeping a sky high value for mine, but this is not my personnality. Saying there is more of such buckle around than some believe (and I am able to prove it) has certainly the side effect to reduce the amount each buckle worth, but for me I am saying the truth and I feel good about keeping this path.

You are very right when you are listing the intensive work I am dedicating to the research of new original SS Buckles (and new fakes as well). I am doing it since more than 4 years (not three or 25) but if I am still able to find much more than many others I guess it is due to the respect of my words. You are saying I used many photos in the past which were not mine, and I do agree. Those photos were taken out of public ebay sales and were mostly used to warn collectors of new fakes. Other photos published are either mine (in large majority), either some submitted to me via public or personnal messages. In such case, ANY further publication (to the web or in the printed form) of such photo is done AFTER asking permission to the righteous owner (I keep records of such just in case). You are well placed to know this since some of your own photos, taken from your own collection, are displayed in my own Forum WITH your approval. The same was done, in this Forum, with photos of your "unique" steel SS EM Assmann 155/40 with crank catch. I added your photos to my 5 parts article on the Assmann's production made in 1940 AFTER asking you if I could do such and receiving your verbal agreement. You will also note that this buckle is captionned with full credit to you, both for the photo and the buckle even if you did not request it.
So, since I have to keep my words to the righteous owners of the photos and/or the SS buckles sent to me for photography, I cannot use the SS buckle/photo without their full agreement. It is their right to use it/them as they wish, not mine. You also know that you have some restrictions involved when you follow a project, even if you do not like those. In consequence I expect you will understand my position and prefer to unplease some but stick to my words.

On the other end, you are claiming your SS Buckle is unique, and if it is the case "mea culpa". You did not pictured its back, so you are probably right. Since this one is your, could you please show it to us??. I already shown mine to readers so they could see all aspect of mine. Show us your (you can as well use the copyright restriction) and I can guarantee I will tell you in perfect honesty if it is truely unique or not (I will not need to use someone else photo for this). Fair??

Best Regards

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 11-29-2003, 09:26 PM

Marc (again)
Since it looks like you did not appreciate to have critiscism of the word "ultra", I took liberty to scale its rarity based on my own datas (others could of course differ but I can use only mine). So I did some maths and my results are showing there is, as of today and recorded by myself, more of those buckles in collections than there is steel SS EM 36/43's, which are in turn more than SS EM aluminum 155/40's.
Of course, all the ones I have record/photos off are of similar construction as mine (shown in above posted photos) and bear at least the same O&C ges.gesch. marking. Only side (Assmann) marking could differ.
I also have to remind you that this buckle was unknown from many collectors, including you, just because nobody paid attention to its very different design from the regular Overhoff production and also because many collectors, including you and me, did not check before sides of known SS Buckles in collections. Just get collectors to do the job and certainly even more will surface. In this case maybe the rarity is not to take in account, just the check out process is to refine. If rarity was the point, I would not be able to find more of those in a year than I was able to find 36/43's and aluminum 155/40's in four.
So, I let readers scale rarity as they wish. You could also post your maths as well which may help having a different view. I am open to learn everyday and of course I am burning to see the back of your unique!!

Best Regards

Pieter,
Since we are talking about ultra, super rare, unique, one-of a kind, never seen before, special items, I know one guy who has such SS buckle (at least the common conscensus says so...). Do you know him also?

Best Regards

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 11-30-2003, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by Jean Pierre Redeuilh

Pieter,
Since we are talking about ultra, super rare, unique, one-of a kind, never seen before, special items, I know one guy who has such SS buckle (at least the common conscensus says so...). Do you know him also?

Best Regards

...JP , I think I know him too

...
Pieter.

**John T** · 11-30-2003, 11:44 AM

I think all the guys with early O & C buckles should check the sides of their buckles for these markings. I have honestly never bothered to look at the sides as once I see the O & C, I do not look any further for markings... I strongly suspect there are more of these in collections that the owners have simply not noticed, when I get a chance I will dig out my early pieces and look to see if they have this rare marking and advise others who may have not already examined their buckles closely to do the same. I think the fact that JP has made others aware of this variation may have helped to bring out or "expose" a few that were in collections and not known to have been marked in such a way.

John

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 12-01-2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by militarybuyer

I think the fact that JP has made others aware of this variation may have helped to bring out or "expose" a few that were in collections and not known to have been marked in such a way.

Indeed, and maybe even myself would have let this SS Buckle pass if my own Forum did not received this post from the previous owner of the buckle which started all (Dave S.) in August 2002 (copy/past of his message follows):
" I just noticed on my O&C that it had an RZM # and SS on the side of the buckle. I can't find any like it in the picture gallery. Jean, could you shed some light on it? Is it any good? Thanks. Dave"
As an added note, reading the original text, we can safely assume Dave did not notice the secondary marking until recently (and he was the owner of this SS Buckle for over 25 years).

Now, since Marc asked for photos which are not my property, and since I put a point of honor to always been able to back up what I state in public, here are photos of the ground dug one which legitimates this particuliar SS Buckle as original. We are here no longer talking about personnal feeling or guessing but about evidence: this buckle was REALLY dug in East Europe (not Belgium which is the land of ultra, super rare, unique, one-of a kind, never seen before, special items

). I called Sunday (not emailed) in East Europe the righteous owner of those photos to ask him if I could publicly post his photos he kindly sent to me and his answer was yes. So, here they are. For public records this one has "NO" secondary marking on its side (so no RZM 155/36 SS like on mine). The typical O&C ges.gesch. (with rounded straight vertical bars on g's) is its only marking.

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 12-01-2003, 08:10 AM

Front

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a.jpg (48.5 KB, 516 views)

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 12-01-2003, 08:13 AM

Front Detail (the very characteristic eagle's design with "wolf" like head, long rope behind AND front of head as well as short curved wings)

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1.jpg (44.7 KB, 513 views)

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 12-01-2003, 08:15 AM

Only marking on this buckle

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2.jpg (52.6 KB, 514 views)

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 12-01-2003, 08:20 AM

Well, there is no need to post other buckles I have in my files since so far they are close to the two above variants.
But I am very impatient to see the "unique" Marc has since it could bring even more light on the subject for all.

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 12-01-2003, 02:58 PM

....Röhm en Himmler waren ook al geen vrienden....geschiedenis herhaald zich toch telkens weer....grapje....

Pieter.

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 01-10-2004, 05:07 PM

Hello All,

As expected, this thread was of use since I received this week photos of another of those particuliar SS buckles.
I know the owner of this example is reading it since he asked me if I knew how was the back and markings on Marc's and I unfortunately had to admit I didn't know.
So, I am posting photos of this new one with his permission since bringing to the top this topic will maybe bring an answer to his question as well as mine.
Since this buckle and photos are not mine, I have to use the "No Reproduction Allowed".

-The buckle is not painted green. The color is just neusilber typical oxidation (before turning brown).
-The O&C ges.gesch. marking is the only visible marking.
-Prongs are straight but could have been replaced since this buckle was purchased from the market and if neusilber does not rust, steel does.

NOTE for the records: Reading again the whole thread, I never said I knew or was able to locate only three of those buckles, but instead that three other early SS EM buckles were remaining much rarer than this one (mass production - not prototype - and of course as of today and to my own knowledge). This note does not change anything but I like keeping straight records.

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 01-10-2004, 05:08 PM

Front

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O&Cweb.jpg (27.5 KB, 416 views)

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 01-10-2004, 05:09 PM

Back

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O&Cbweb.jpg (23.0 KB, 418 views)

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 01-10-2004, 05:15 PM

Detail of straight prongs

NOTE: Since overall condition of the buckle shows heavy oxidation to the neusilber (Nickel Silver) maybe steel prongs have been changed.

Attached Files

pro.jpg (36.4 KB, 413 views)

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