Unqualified Air Gunner

[Stan]

This is a badge I purchased from Adrian Forman in 1997. I have never had any issues with it and indeed similar ones have ben posted on WAF which have received positive responses. Additionally, Stephen Previtera shows an identical badge in his book on Luft badges.

When I posted it on GCA yesterday Tom D had reservations about it. He was concerned about the softness of the details, the "strange" markers mark, and the fact that Assmann would be using an earlier wreath die for a late-war produced badge (the wreath has "A" on the revese left and "DRGM" on the revese right).

What do the members on WAF think? Should I be concerned?

Comments welcome.

Stan

[Stan]

Unqualified Air Gunner Badge

Reverse.

Note that the hinge is an integral part of the badge.

Stan

[Karsten S]

Hi Stan

I do see the points made by Tom, and I tent to agree with him, but I also think it is a very nice executed badge.

Could you measure the eagle for me as shown?

Thanks for posting the badge Stan.

Best Regards

Karsten

[Stan]

Unqualified Air Gunner Badge

Hi Stan

I do see the points made by Tom, and I tent to agree with him, but I also think it is a very nice executed badge.

Could you measure the eagle for me as shown?

Thanks for posting the badge Stan.

Best Regards

Karsten

Hi Karsten,

Wing tip to wing tip = 40.95mm

Eagle's beak to ing tip = 40.38 (approx)

Stan

[Stan]

Unqualified Air Gunner Badge

I have just checked Stephen Previtera's book on Luft Badges and he shows a regular Air Gunner badge with the same wreath, the same hardware BUT a different "A" on the eagle!

Stan

[Karsten S]

Hi Stan

The eagle is for sure smaller than the one used on the ordinary AG´s.

Regards

Karsten

I am very confused with Privitera´s measurement´s of AG´s.
On p. 294 he list´s the UQAG Assmann with the DRGM wreath (like yours) 44,05mm wingspan

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Stan,

Just for the record, I personally do not have a problem with the thought that Assmann may have used their earlier die used on with their aluminum badges to make zink badges later in the war. That is not my concern at all with your badge. It actually make sense to me if we think logically about the base metals they were using. When Assmann used aluminum early in the war, it was soft enough to allow them to cast the hinge integral to the back of the wreath. This was probably done around 1938 or so. When they switched back to using brass/nickel silver for the wreaths, it was a much harder and denser material, and it was nearly impossible to create the integral hinge without using a tremendous force. This is evident in the Gene's extremely rare tombak pilot badge shown on page 108/109 of Privetera's book. Assmann tried it, but it was apparently much too difficult with the harder base metal, so they changed the die to remove the integral hinge and probably why Gene's badge is so rare.

But, once the companies switched to zink around 1942 or so, it was softer and easier to work with than tombak, especially if it were heated up a bit to make it more malleable. I think it is logical that Assmann could have pulled out their earlier die because of this and made some of their zink AG badges with it.

So, theoretically, I don't have a problem at all with the use of an earlier die later in the war, simply based on the fact of using different base metals. However, my concerns have more to do with the maker mark, soft details, weird finish, weird non-Assmann rivets, etc. Here is what I wrote over at GCA:

I have seen this type of Assmann Airgunner a few times before, but have always thought it was odd that the maker mark on the eagle doesn't seem to match any other original Assmann badge I know of. Looking at these closer, the wreath reverse seems really soft (edges). Can you post some dimensions of yours?

Here is another one I have on file, same as yours with weird maker mark on the back of the eagle. Also notice the rivets, they are messier than originals IMO. The rivets on yours looks much more typical of Assmann, but with that weird maker mark and soft details, I am wondering what the dimensions of yours is.

Can anyone post another original Assmann badge with this type of maker mark?

Thanks

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

reverse

[Thomas Durante]

Here is my other post from GCA:

I definately have a few on file, but always questioned the maker mark, the weird, thick finish, the rivets, and the soft A/DRGM mark on the wreaths.

These are interesting because it seems that Assmann took the original die they used for their really early aluminum badges, and used it to make some of these out of zinc late in the war. So, I think a good comparison to the dimensions of the wreaths of the early aluminum Assmann ROAGs is appropriate. And when you do this, they are a little smaller IMO. This could be signs of them being a casting, but only 1 of a few issues I have with these.

The other big one is the maker mark. This "fat" Assmann mark is unlike the ones they normally used on their zink Airgunner badges that would be from the same timeframe IMO. In fact, this fat mark is not found on ANY original Assmann badge that I know of. If anyone can post pics of this type of maker mark being used on another "unquestionable" original badge, please post it here!

Also, the finish has always looked weird to me. Not really the type Assmann used on their zink badges, and its always in really good condition, uncharacteristic of mid-to-late war zinc-based badges.

I am not condemning these pieces, but really just looking for a decent study of them to see if we can sort of come to a better understanding of them. The attached WAF thread indeed has lots of thumbs ups, but as time goes by and people study these badges more and more, new revelations can come to light IMO.

Tom

[LuckyLuudje]

This is getting interesting.
If needed I can search for the Airgunner wich is around somewhere.
It has the raised A mark

I only know it's weight was 49,8 gram.

[Thomas Durante]

I think to emphasize my point on the possibility that Assmann used their earlier, aluminum dies with these late war zink badges, look at page 284/285 of Privetera's book. It shows a regular AG badge using the same die, but made of zink. I think this badge is totally legitamate, and what we would expect from a mid-to-late war Assmann badge.

So, you can see that I am not doubting the existing of these, and I think the one shown on page 284/285 is perfectly fine IMO. But just the type shown by Stan. A similar one of these "questionable" badge is shown on page 294/295 of Privetera's book as well. The smaller dimensions of these questionable badges is also troubling IMO. Here are the dimensions from all the one's in Steve's book:

1. Good Aluminum ROAG: H = 53.34
(Page 242/243) W = 42.44

2. Good Zink AG: H = 52.76
(Page 284/285) W = 42.16

3. Questionable U. AG: H = 52.33
(Page 294/295) W = 41.36

Since all these are the same exact wreath die, it make sense to compare the dimensions and as you can see the questionable one is a bit more smaller than all the "good" ones, especially in the width. This could be signs of a casting, but is really only 1 aspect of these questionable badges that make them a little fishy IMO.

Tom

[George L]

I know I've seen two different types of 'A's on perfectly good tombac Assmann badges; one with the flat serifs on the bottom, and the other with angles serifs on the bottom of each arm of the 'A'. Tough to tell from these pics if it's the angled variety.

[rfleming32]

Three examples of a stamped Assman MM on a pilot, observer, and pilot observer.

[J Temple-West]

Sorry for the link, but just off out for the evening and time is short.

And in short.....Not for my collection!

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopi...***entry373712

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

John, thanks very much for the link to the GMIC forum and showing that this exact maker mark has been found on fake badges! I had suspected this was the case, but in all my searching I haven't been able to find one yet.

Here is the picture from the GMIC, hope that is OK that I grabbed it. John says they came from a reproduction LW flak badge, and another showed up on an original Deumer badge. John, would you be kind enough to post the 2 badges where this "questionable" maker mark shows up on?

Here are also the dimensions from Stan's badge, which he posted on GCA yesterday afternoon and can be compared to the ones I posted earlier:

Stan's badge: H = 52.13 mm
W = 41.54 mm

It seems to me that Stan's dimensions are more in line with the "questionable" badges rather than the originals IMO.


So what do we have here:

1. A few questionable badges that have a maker mark on them that has NEVER been found on an unquestionably good Assmann badge. On the contrary, it has been found on at least 1 post war reprodution.

2. Smaller dimensions than originals, a common sign of cast reproductions.

3. Cruder cutouts and softer details/edges than known originals.

4. Different type of finish than normally encounterd on Assmann zinkers.

5. Hands on study by a very experienced LW collection (John T. West), who says it is "evident in hand that it is NOT correct".

Is this enough evidenct to call these out as reproductions? In my mind, YES, but they are atleast questionable IMO. Any more thoughts on these?

Thanks

Tom