Post war L/12's

[Brian S]

Opinions and theory often lead to wonderful conclusions which benefit the entire community of collectors. Here however, is proof IMHO that an L/12 EK1 is perfectly legitimate;


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ek1+statistics

L/12
1 cased+outer carton
2 cased
4 uncased

These numbers show no untoward suggestion of impropriety on the part of Juncker personnel

[Brian S]

Compare to;

"65"
6 uncased
1 cased, unmarked
8 cased

Whose RK dies, so I've heard, did survive the war.

[Dez H]

I think Brian you are skirting the issue, those stats prove nothing, I doubt frankly if they cover even 5% of the collecting community. I will ask the question one more time, just give us a simple answer.

What during the 60's, 70's is to stop Juncker churning out more badges? Regardless if they actually did it or not. We have proven they did it with the GK's and Godet borrowed RK dies, so yes Brian what is to stop them doing it with any dies? Please answer this.

[Brian S]

Jamie Cross web site attributes the postwar highend fakes to former workers from Juncker working alongside Klietmann to produce items from Deschler dies.

Nothing will stop ANYONE from producing fakes. But with 10x magnification, unless you have the same die in May, 1945, condition, you will NOT produce fakes to fool us.

Deschler or Godet die stamped postwar examples with L/12, great for us! They might as well stamp "MADE IN KOREA".

But to answer another of your questions, German Law forbade the manufacturer of NAZI items in post-war Germany. England was a logical locale.

[ChrisJ]

Jamie Cross web site attributes the postwar highend fakes to former workers from Juncker working alongside Klietmann to produce items from Deschler dies.

Nothing will stop ANYONE from producing fakes. But with 10x magnification, unless you have the same die in May, 1945, condition, you will NOT produce fakes to fool us.

Deschler or Godet die stamped postwar examples with L/12, great for us! They might as well stamp "MADE IN KOREA".

But to answer another of your questions, German Law forbade the manufacturer of NAZI items in post-war Germany. England was a logical locale.

Come on Gordon....I bet that you have some comments to make here !

[Gordon Williamson]

I've never heard of any evidence of the Deschler tooling be used post-war. I suspect Jamie is confusing this with the use of the Godet tooling.

Klein & Quenzer tooling certainly survived the war, but I know for a fact that at least the EK1 dies were not re-used. The EK1 dies were blagged by one of the employees as a souvenir when the firm finally cleared out all the old wartime tooling and he still has them. What happened to the others or if they were ever used to make restrikes I have no idea, but the lack of any convincing copies suggests not.Having the dies is one thing, having the expertise to make a perfect replica including the all imporatnt finishing, is quite another matter.

The only Juncker dies that seen to have been known to have been destroyed with any certainty were the RK and Bandenkampfabzeichen though there may well have been others. Notwithstanding the fact that it was technically illegal to do so, Juncker certainly make restrikes after WW2. It is well known (and recorded I believe in one of Klietmanns books) that they remade the 20 Juli 1944 Wound Badge on the twentieth anniversary of the assassination attempt. May have been something to do with the fact that being in Berlin, they were not in fact controlled by the West German government at that time but the Allied Control Comission. Maybe they were lax about controlling such infringements, or just couldn't be bothered.
It seems to have been an open secret that S&L were remaking stuff and no one seems to have bothered them about it.

Misuse of the L/12 mark on fakes certainly caused a loss of confidence in Juncker stuff for some considerable time. Never bothered me much because a) they weren't exactly big producers of KM awards and b) they are my least favourite RK (any product where they had to file lumps out of the frame to get the core to fit doesn't speak highly of the quality of their manufacture to me). The Juncker RK may be a "safe" bet because it has never been successfully copied , but aesthetically it leaves me cold. Rather have a Steinhauer, K&Q or Zimmermann any day.

[Sonderkommando]

I'm with Gordon in the fact that Junker items are of average quality. Compare the inner corners of a Zimmerman KC to a Junker KC and you will know instantly who made the better quality awards. The same is true of Zimmerman EK's. However, due to the poor quality "cross hatching" effect in the centre beading of a Junker KC it has been a blessing in disguise for us collectors as it allows us to detimine good from bad in regards to these KC's.

I would and I do choose Zimmerman items over Junker any day of the week.

Regards,
Brett

[Brian S]

I'm for any original RK. I can't say I appreciate an S&L over a Juncker or a K&Q. You go through one of the books with all those vets and read their stories, and it really doesn't make even the slightest bit of difference.

My favorite books are Der Ritterkreuztrager der Waffen-SS for the sheer size of the book. You spend an evening reading a hundred biographies and then take a hold of ANY original RK and think who it might have belonged to and it's an amazing feeling. Also, On The Field Of Honor, a two volume set with handsome photos and great biographies. Only problem with that book is, you'll want the Swords and Oaks too...

Better than chocolate